2007 Preview
As spring is finally starting to get here, the '07 season can't be far behind. For those who ran the TMRO race, it has already begun. Due to weather considerations along our intended travel path, Mean Streak stayed home, and while I missed seeing and racing with my friends, the money will be better spent on prepping for the '07 outdoor season. As for the jeep, the main focus in '07 will be reliability and fine tuning the existing combo. I have started the design phase for a new chassis, and will be working toward having it out in '08. I have gotten some really good ideas from many fellow racers and will be lurking in the pits with a camera when I see more. The only rule change that I have heard of for Pro Stock will disallow the removal of body parts from the race vehicle before racing, so as to maintain their stock appearance.
As for the web site, I wll be adding a new interview piece entitled OUT OF BOUNDS WITH.... This will be a short 10 to 12 question interview with past and present Pro Class racers. The format and questions should be ready for Lima. The other change that you will notice affects the blog page and the content of comments left there. As of now, there will be a ZERO TOLERANCE policy for personal attacks of any kind directed at anyone. I do not want my fellow racers to stop visiting and posting to the site, and off topic and blatant and personal attacks are not what this forum is for. While I do not believe in censorship, any inapproprate posts will now simply be deleted. On a final note, there is no such thing as anonimity on the internet, and those responsible for the inappropriate posts should have thought about that. We know who you are and where you are.
That's all for now.
As for the web site, I wll be adding a new interview piece entitled OUT OF BOUNDS WITH.... This will be a short 10 to 12 question interview with past and present Pro Class racers. The format and questions should be ready for Lima. The other change that you will notice affects the blog page and the content of comments left there. As of now, there will be a ZERO TOLERANCE policy for personal attacks of any kind directed at anyone. I do not want my fellow racers to stop visiting and posting to the site, and off topic and blatant and personal attacks are not what this forum is for. While I do not believe in censorship, any inapproprate posts will now simply be deleted. On a final note, there is no such thing as anonimity on the internet, and those responsible for the inappropriate posts should have thought about that. We know who you are and where you are.
That's all for now.
Labels: mud bogs, mud drags, mud racing, nmro
118 Comments:
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Hoods ? we don't need no hoods - run what you brung and hope you brung enought !!!
remember your never a problem -until you become a threat.
Traverler sorry for the delay but the posts that you see here are not from me. As for the rule change that was mentioned the thought was to hold things as close to stock lookimg as possible. Were this trend to go unchecked how long would it be before we were looking like our pro mod brothers.
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Mean Streak,
I can post anonymously or under other, but still can't with my Google account. Any info on that Yet?
NO one should be throwing stones in this glass house everyone of us has something on our cars that dosen't follow the rule book.The rules should ALL be followed or NONE at all! Lets just race and stop complaining!
your right to some extent, But you cannot have it both ways.
As for me, My comments were never aimed at any ones ride or meant to cut down any vehicle out there (I know what it take to build one). Its just my opinion on the rules. (that's why they call it a blog/forum). I am not throwing stones - my comments are based on what I know and what I see is accepted in the NMRO. There is nothing wrong with change when it comes to rules(I for one welcome it) But I will criticize a governing body for not overseeing/clarifying the rules that are already in place. How can we as an organization hope to move forward with this sport without a uniform set of rules, enforced by a organization, (buy the way - that we as racer, pay dues to), to keep things fair and just. If you are a serious competitor, you should understand this.
Because this is not always the case - we as racers must speak out, therefore my comments on - no rules or - the unwritten rules.
I am not complaining - I am making a statement - I accept what NMRO accepts as legal, Even if it is not written. Even if it does not agree with my opinion.
my jeep is a 1947 willy's - it has a 102" wheelbase - I guess that make mine illegal (stock is 74")- tires in the stock wheel wells - mine are only 50% in - I guess I am out on that one also?
Does this meen I can not race it in class 3?
Sorry for ranting on like that - after years of playing politics, sometimes I just unload.
I really enjoy this sport and the people in it.
I also want to thank "Mean Streak Racing" for having this site - so we can do a little bench racing.
Traveler i wasnt saying you were complaining but there were guys complaining in class 3 about guys taking hoods off and running and my point is no one should complain about that and make the excuse that we will look like the pro mods when our cars are not within the rules on chassis and wheelbase that was my point i like your comments not only on this blog but others i have read. rock on!
Anonymous - thanks !
You made some good points also - nice to see others on this site.
I was just working on my schedule for 07 - trying to decide on going to Lima and let T and the others whoop up on me. Or wait until June and a local race in NY. (still have work to do on the jeep to get it ready). Oh well - time will tell. It won't be long and the season will start.
What races are others shooting for?
I believe there is a race in virginia april 14th and 15th good 2 days for testing. the track is 200ft. That will get you ready for the nmro season.
That's to early for me - won't be ready until mid-May.
Just wanted to wish everyone a fun filled and successful racing season.
bye.
the comments about wheelbase don't take into account the 12 inches NMRO gives you to set the front end ahead. depending on where the motor is in relation to the front end this can add significatly to the overall wheelbase. don't forget this is the same rulebook that still has rear exhaust stacks in Pro Stock
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Meanstreak I am shocked You of all people as well as us racers know that 12" setback rule is NOT how far you can stretch the front end(from stock) but the FARTHEST that you are allowed to set your motor back from the front end.That rule does nothing to allow your trucks to be stretched like they all are.
So isnt the majority of class 3 vehicles really pro-mods anyway? so whats wrong with looking like your brothers as you have said?.
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Come on guys!! Are you just looking for things to argue about? Like it or not, here is where Class 3 is today. The chassis has to have some stock frame in it. It does not matter what it is or where it is!! So what the heck does stock wheelbase have to do with anything!! The motor can be mounted a maximum of 12 inches behind the front end. This has nothing to do with what frame is used or what the wheelbase is. The seat must be in stock location for the BODY being used. This also has nothing to do with what frame is used. And.. The body has to resemble a truck or Jeep. Not half of a truck or Jeep. This is the most important rule in Class 3. The vehicles have to be recognizable to the spectators. Obviously, you cannot remove part of the body when you race in Class 3.
Sliced and Diced…Stretched…YES these things are acceptable. Don’t like it, try Class 2
BTW, Pro Mod cars have no stock frame, can put the motor wherever they want, run nitrous, use aluminum blocks, run cuts and need NO body. There are still a ton of differences between Class 3 and Class 4.
Lets work on the NMRO to clean their rulebook up so that the rules match where the Classes are and not fight with each other!! We are all in this together!!!
Ok instagator first of all we are not arguing we are talking. I don't care what nmro rules they go by my problem is if they are not gonna follow there own rule book change the rules to match the cars!.Under class 3 qualifications rule # 2 says STOCK wheelbase if they are not gonna enforce it GET RID OF IT.Cuz if its in there and they dont follow it then why can't i run 2 carbs?why do i have to weight 3000 pds? why cant i run an aluminum block?why cant i run nos? It will still look stock?.
Do you get my point just take out the rules they dont enforce.nmro keeps adding rules and not removing ones that havent been followed for years!
I completely agree ANONYMOUS! The NMRO needs to completely start over with their rulebook. They have made too many revisions without removing rules that are no longer enforced. Correcting the rulebook would not be that difficult. Is it really too much for us to ask of them?? The thing is, I personally have tried for years to get them to do it. I have written several letters to The Promotion Company, met with Bruce (away from a race) and tried to get other competitors to do the same. The NMRO (Promotion Company) is consistent. The consistently do not care enough about the Mud Race competitors to make the effort to correct the problems. (i.e.National Mudder, nmro.net) We have what we have. Right or wrong, we go by what Bruce says, not what the rulebook says. I personally DO NOT AGREE with this, but it has been this way for over 10 years. Fortunately, some other sanctioning bodies are writing rules that actually put into words what the NMRO means!
All I am saying is accept things the way that they are or try to do something to make it better. Express your opinions to the NMRO. “Talking” about it in this blog will not change anything.
I couldn't agree more! The NMRO is in worse shape now than a decade ago (pay, venues, equipment, rules, customer service, etc.). In many other forms of racing, national events are so popular you have to qualify or get drawn in a lottery to attend to compete. In mudracing, I think racers still attend nationals only because there are so few other races. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed every national I have been to, mostly because of the fellow racers, but the recurring theme in the pits is how poorly racers are treated. It's not worth my time to debate rules for the sake of national events, because there it's more judgment than text, but they are still a very important topic because many independent promoters are using them. Just to chip in my two cents worth on wheelbase, I don't think it matters when the option to build a truck on a four door longbed frame exists. The only way to purify a pro stock class would be to make an extensive rule book, such as the NHRA, specifying exact bodies, wheelbase, cubic inch, heads, rod alloys, tire size, chassis material, decal location, and I could go on and on. Luckily, I won't. While that would get everyone on the same page, it usually makes the sport prohibitively expensive. Finally, I like cubic inch limit. What does everyone think? Mean Streak, I appreciate having a place to rant. Thanks!
For anyone working on their 07 schedule, Fast Mud Promotions is again hosting a race in Transfer, PA. Pro stock and Pro mod are the main features. It pays pretty well, and treats the racers even better. Anybody that needs more info can email me at mhrs104@hotmail.com . If you send me your postal address, I will send you a flyer. Most of you have been there, but if you haven't, it's a great fast track, decent camping, great interstate access, and a good time. It's worth the trip.
Thank you both Instgator and MHRS for your insightful posts. You guys are why this forum exists. we need to get more racers involved to show the powers that be that WE are important and so is our wallet. This should not only extend to entry fees but also to simlifing the rules and instituting ones that make iit more affordable for all to race. Higher car counts = higher payout!!
I think we are all on the same page. All of this ranting just shows how frustrated we are over NMRO's lack of enforcement on the rules. The fact that none of the modifications that are allowed to run, are addressed in the rule book makes it even more confusing. (If you ask the tech guy he just quotes you what is written in the rule book 4 years ago). I agree this also can make it hard for other promoter to use NMRO rules.
How much would it take to rewrite a set of rules? Because I do not have the ability to remain quite - Maybe I should start a new organization? lets call it the National Dirt Drag Association. (NDDA) with the following rules for class 3.
adapt All of NMRO's general and safety rules.
1. Any chassis - Max. 130" wheel base, four wheel drive only.
2. any automotive engine - any modifications, single carb, No alum blocks. No power adders.(no blowers, etc.)
3. setback 12" (from center of front axle to #1 plug)
4. Fuel - gas or racing fuel only.(no fuel additives, no-nos, no-nitro etc.).
5. body - Vehicle must have & run a stock or stock replacement body, (any commercially available reproduction body) - body may be gutted - must resemble truck or jeep.
6. drivers seat stock location (left of center)
7. weight 3,000 lbs big block -with spread port heads (pro stock or less then 23 degree valve angle). 2,800 lbs big blocks with 23/24 degree (conventional)heads, 2600 lbs small block. (cubic in limits takes to much time to tech & $$ of meter)
8. tires - any DOT approved tire.
There done - that will be $10 please !
thank you.
I am not going to debate the rules any more - am going to work on whats needed to rewrite them.
P.s. that transfer race is a good time - with good people.
Traveler great ideas for the rules. I would like to see no sheetmetal intakes or dry sumps as well. That cuts the cost of the motor by at least $5000 and could make the conventional headed motor more competitiive.
As a side note it would also some what limit the cubic inch as there are no cast intakes that i know of for the super tall blocks. Withtout intake spacers you couldn't go much bigger that 680 and that would have to be wiith a 4.900 bore space and you still may not be able to get a cast intake. In the real world that miight make the cid limit about 650 with edge going to Ford. Does your body rule include race weight bodies? Other than that I would have no problem running those rules and neither would most of the country.
Right on traveler your rules sound good to me maybe you should write up your rules and give them to bruce at lima. Maybe the racers could get a petition started this year and give it to bruce at indy and they can do something with the rules over the winter this year.As far as sheetmetal intakes and dry sumps I believe sam franklin ran a 632 without a dry sump and without a sheetmetal intake last year, how did he finish? oh yea thats right tied for FIRST.
Good point on the sheetmetal intakes, it might hold things a little on the ci. (the big thing as you said would be the $$$ - if you want to make people scream, limit it to single-plain cast only). but I think a good 632-648 will run with a 700+ with the right tuner, whether the intake is cast or sheetmetal. I would be more likely to limit the carb - as in no stretched carbs / or 4 venturi of no more then 2 1/8" ea. The idea with rules would be to set limits to make closer competition and hold some of the cost down, But not to limit the growth of the class.(that's where it gets tough).
That's why I believe in weight breaks - to help level the field, (a small advantage would still go to the big motors and high $ rides). (I would like to drop the min. weights even lower - say to 3,000, BB - 2,750, SB - 2,450 lbs)
As for race weight bodies - I say why not. we run with a minimum weight, so what difference does it make if the body weights 40 lbs or 140 lbs its the builders choice.
P.S. NDDA events would be heads-up racing, max. 16 truck field (two runs for qualifier / position)8 truck min. (We need more drama in this sport).
I love the idea of a cast single plane as well as the heads up racing. BTW Mike Z just informed me of a race in Schagticoke NY on the 9 and 10 of june. It will be 160' and run the same as the Chatham event.
I love the heads up idea, and the set wheelbase. I would advise caution on two points. Tire size limits help keep cost down. If someone came out with a 53 that works great, it could make everyone's 44s somewhat obsolete. Tires last a long time in mudracing compared to other motorsports. I don't think a cast intake rule would have the desired effect. You can build 725+ ci engines on a 4.840 platform in iron. All it takes from there are spacers. Yes, I know it would all be custom, but not out of the realm of the exotic stuff people are already running. I would hate to see the guys that already have combos that don't fit drop out of the sport. We can't afford to lose anybody. Even picking an inch limit would be tough if you were to go that route, but without a firm number, I could probably spend my way around most parts restrictions.
While we are putting pressure on the NMRO, I can't think of any other sanctioning body that charges the same entry fee to different classes that pay out drastically different. Why should pro stock pay the same as open to compete for $400 versus $1000?
A lot of good ideas here -
I agree any intake rules should stay out,(as in no limitations) yes? / no ?
I think the carb rule should stay in (as in no stretched carbs / only 4 venturi, 2 1/8" max. dia. ea.)yes? / no?
I see your point on the tires it could stay at 46" max. yes? / no?
I am a believer in the K.I.S.S. theory (Keep It Simple Stupid - (no offence) therefore a set of simple and concise rules are all that are needed (that's why the upper classes have worked so well)By leaving "gray areas" so to speak it gives the opportunity to be innovative in our designs and retain that outlaw flavor that i think the fans like.
I was debating on going to Lima ( i am not self appointing myself) But I would be willing (as a group)to help put something together to present to the racers for input and acceptance. you need leverage to make something like this to work - signatures of the racers may not be all we need.
as for the money - how could i not agree - but as i said it will take leverage (as in us bringing something to the table)to get them to open their wallets.
P.S. the NDDA format of a heads-up race may not be just a dream - stay tuned?
Good point on the intake spacers MHRS. They would have to go as well. If you kept it to a single plane intake that take out the streched carbs as well. Now you are lookiing at saving at least $8000 on the cost of the motor. Now as far as the tires go bogger already has a 54 out there but you would probably need a crane to lift it. As some guys are trying the 40 boggers this year and chassis improve the trend may go the other way
I would love to see some type of petition with suggestions for rulebook improvements presented to an NMRO rep, and Lima would be a great place to do it. Traveler, you may be the perfect person to do it! The thing is, we would really need to be realistic in what we would expect to gain. I strongly believe that the NMRO is not going to make any changes to the rules that would eliminate any competitors. Changes in the rules that would limit motor sizes or modifications should have been done a few years ago. It is not fair to the people who have already spent that money.
The other thing is that the rules need to be very simple to tech and enforce. (K.I.S.S.) Bruce is usually the only tech rep who knows anything about what is going on, and he already does basically everything! I REALLY like the idea of giving weight breaks to vehicles with smaller engines or less modifications, but this would require some extra effort in tech to establish and check engine sizes. Mean Streak and I have already presented a written proposal to Bruce with ideas along this line and it was shot down at the NMRO Fall rule meeting.
If we were able to convince the NMRO to at least re-word the rules so that they match where Class 3 actually is today and remove some of the obsolete wording, it would be a huge improvement. I will, however, support any changes that the majority of the competitors in Class 3 agree on. Maybe that should be the first step, some kind of questionnaire that racers could fill out at Lima. If we were united in our views on where the class should be and how the rules should read, our proposals would have much more legitimacy.
BTW, I like the direction that this forum is going lately!!!!
Im all for rule changes to better the classes I just don't like rule changes eliminating modifications already being used, i agree with instagator. I dont see where dry sumps and sheet metal intakes are an issue at all mr massie as well as mr franklin were co-champs last year and neither had dry sumps or sheet metal intakes. I dont see why mean streak is making an issue about cost. It seems like the guys with dry sumps and sheet metal intakes are not running any better than the other guys so why complain. seems like there just waisting a ton of money on things that are not really making a difference.By the way are your pontiac heads conventional on the blue jeep?
i have been reading this blog for a while now an there is some good points an some that are not worth crap, you are just barking in the wind to get nmro to change anything, but as for the sheet metal intakes an stretched carbs go, i have done alot of testing on the dyno with my new engine combo an i have owned everything comming an going when it comes to motors an with a good cast intake an a good port job they will make more power than a sheet metal with a strech so you would be cutting your own throat there. an as for the dry sumps go everybody has the option to purchase one, an they are a little costly but thats racing an you cant control racing with money everbody is going to spend different ammounts of money on there ride but there is a few that will spend more but that dont meen it,s unfair to others look a nascar DEI for a instance they are the most fundded group out there but see how they are running dont yah, just a little something to think about
Before we all go off in different directions - Please re-read my post on the 8 rules and the other posts,
The purpose was to clarify the existing rules - open up other rules, to hopefully eliminate the controversy and make the class better (to move forward)- not to go backwards, anything that is in should stay in. (that means all the modifications that have been accepted in the past).
And yes - as I and others said - these should be presented to the racers - Before we EVEN THINK about talking to the NMRO.
Think progressive (maybe we are all just Pi--ing in the wind - but one never knows how far this can go - unless we try).
I like the idea of an opinion survey to be passed around at Lima. As much as I like our ideas here, pretty much everyone must be on board for anything to happen. Just a few comments on the dry sump / sheetmetal debate: yes, if everyone was building from scratch for next year, eliminating these would save cash. Besides alienating existing setups, keep in mind that many teams are utilizing the steady flow of used parts from other pro teams in different forms of racing. Example - a sheetmatal intake from a 3-5 year old pro mod drag car can be had for a little over a grand. There are a lot of top end castings worth that much or more new. As far as the dry sumps, yes, they are a substantially higher initial investment, and not terribly common used, but in the long run, I am a firm believer that they promote longevity in top end motors. An ultra trick wet pump can cost over $500, and it still doesn't provide the protection a dry system does. When I say I favor an inch limit, I'm talking in the 750 inch range. this should include almost everybody, but keep things from getting out of hand. Sound like a big number? Think back ten years, and how common were 632s? You used to have a big hammer when you put a quarter stroke in your tall deck truck block with 990 heads. It won't take long for the aftermarket to make this affordable. Everything progresses so much faster in other types of racing, that soon, big to us will be mass produced. As far as carbs, lets evaluate. In my opinion, for cash conservation, I would allow two carbs, but no splits. Price it out. Whether you want a single split, or a single stretched carb, two out of the box 4500s are cheaper. If you are of the cast intake persuasion, tunnel rams are a lot more common than singles. This might make Joe Blow with his 565 and off the shelf Brodix heads be able to compete. In following this months blog theme, I would be willing to spend some time (my most valuable commodity) working on the survey for class 3. If we have a consensus that this is what needs done, post it. Let's get together on this.
A quick note on a weight break for small blocks: keep in mind that 472 ci single 4 cast intake sbc motors that make in excess of 625 hp are now an off the shelf crate motor from Shafiroff. This is not a full race offering, it's listed as streetable. More brutal offerings are sure to follow.
Just to clarify a few points previously mentioned
jason DID have a sheetmetal intake last year and I am not "complaining" about dry sumps or any other high dollar mod. My point in this context was about a set of hypothetical rules that could keep the competition at the same level yet not cost as much,not ones that we all know will not change things are what they are.Instagator is point on about a simple clensing of the rule book. This would be about as far as the NMRO might go.
Everyone has made some good points, But why try to rewrite the rules with more rules. I still stand by my thoughts in the other posts - clean and simple.(approached in the right manner NMRO may be more receptive then you think)
I am going to try to make Lima - if needed i will help canvas the racers. If not - I'll race ya. and have some fun.
Have to sign off at this site (aren't you lucky) - time to go back north. see you at the races.
I agree with you traveler why make rules that would change what others are running because some people think people with more money are running better than they are(which is bull results dont show that at all)The people in class 3 are gonna stay in class 3 regardless of the rules and if you can't afford to be competitive anymore drop down to class 2 but some people on here just cant stop being jealous of what other people have and thats just plain sad!
thank you anonymous that's the smartest commet posted on here! i couln't agree more
well said
What we need here is to get someone, or somebody, interested enough in this sport to take it to the next level.
We need to have sanctioned tracks just like IHRA and NHRA and then we could have some consistency and unity in the rules. There are plenty of racers, and plenty of tracks, but no unity!
It's the only way to have bigger payouts, more racers and more fans.
I'm sure everyone still remembers the SMRO race last April. Definitely the start (and so far the end) of something that could have been, or still could be huge! While it's still on everyone's mind, why doesn't someone run with this?
My point is, we have a great sport, however, we have no promoter, or sanction, or unity.
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Hey is anyone here going to virginia this weekend I heard maybe williams and kinsellas new rides might be there. I was thinking of driving up there to check it out.
Great point, Grinch. I think the biggest ingredient the sport lacks are fans. Nobody is running with the ball because there is not a consistent spectator turnout. Not just for their gate fee, but crowds attract sponsorship. That's where a lot of sanctioning body profit is made. Unfavorable time slots at nationals don't help. Pro stock has a lot of loyal competitors that will head states away to race for about what fuel costs. Most independent races seem to rely on the cars for the bulk of they money in the form of 100% paybacks and minimum car counts for purses. Yes, some venues do draw quite a crowd, but if it was enough to make good money putting on races, the sport would have taken off long ago. Please don't think I'm knocking mudracing, I'm saying if there was a way of presenting it better to the unfamiliar public to get attendance up, a lot of these problems would take care of themselves. Racers already do a great job of being loyal to promoters, what they need is to make more money from other avenues.
Maybe the best route to go on all this would be to get all the other sanctioning bodies to agree upon wording for the class, and then approach NMRO with that. That way, even if NMRO does nothing (which we all know to be a possibility), at least you've accomplished something.
I agree with those that say you don't want to go backwards in the class & outlaw what has become accepted for several seasons. But, I don't care for the 130" wheelbase rule simply because that outlaws a stock, longbed, fullsize pickup. And believe it or not, we have some guys around here running such trucks, some with a bit of stretching to boot. Rather, I think the wheelbase rule needs to be based on total inches of stretch (compared to original wheelbase) & keep the 12" rule regarding the engine/front axle placement.
Nobody has a problem with the the suspension, so the question becomes "how much of the original frame needs to be kept?". The front 2/3? 6 feet? All of it?
As for travel expense & payout, there's no easy answer. Part of the problem is spreading the money over so many classes & places. That's why I think events like the Transfer Shootout & TMRO races are able to be successful - they've limited the race to what most of us would call a partial show. By doing this, you can put more $ per class into the show.
We have $5,000 in bonus money lined up for my next event, but only $500 is for class III (or what I call "Pro DOT") & I'm paying just 3 places. But, at $3 per gallon, the winner might just break even on travel fuel, and that's assuming they don't come from more than a state or two away.
Somehow, some way, I feel we need to find some serious sponsor backing for the events. Whether that be a home run hit from a couple big guys, or hundreds of little guys coughing up $50 each. I know every nickel of sponsor $ we collect for my event will go right into the event, and it still won't be enough. We'll have to cough up some cash out of our pockets & hope it doesn't rain LOL. I've lost big on an event before & I can't do it again. So, w/o the backing, the big purses simply won't be there. And I'm sure that's how it is for everyone else out there trying to have some fun putting these things on. And that sucks, because I really love doing this stuff. And I love being able to say I had guys from 13 states at an event. And I don't know if that'll ever happen again. I don't know what the answer to that is, but maybe someone has some ideas.
GUMBO
hi guys from missouri. i love mud raceing the drags and the boggs and put on some races out this way. i was wondering with so much talk of prize money these days just how much added money plus 100% pay backs are enough ? i for one believe in nothing less than giveing back every penny of the entry fee but that leaves a lot of variables for someone traveling a long distance . so what is a good prize money for class three? i dont really have a class exactly like class 3 at my events but i dont really draw from your direction either my closest class would be pretty similar but have alowed cut dot tires dual carbs and any motor as long as its naturally aspirated .
i know there are a couple of orginzations looking to do quality races over this direction like gumbo and another super guy with the xmro . they have rules that are very similar to the nmro rules .
well good luck on your quest on straighting up the rule book . maybe ill get to meet some of you at the springfeild ill. event this year , i wont get to race class 3 because of the dual carbs and aluminum block rule but ill give class 4 a little try and go home with my tail between my legs . good luck brad
Grinch I agree we need unity. To get that, we need to organize first. The reason I believe that we as a group should approach the NMRO first - Their rules are probably the most used and copied in this sport.
There are many good tracks and certainly many good promoters, most of them look to the NMRO rules when putting on a larger event. (Why - because it helps to bring in out of state trucks) Once the NMRO shows that it might be willing to clear up some of the controversy,(which right now is driving racers away). I believe more and more promoters will start using their guidelines for the upper classes. If not? why do you think there is an IHRA. ("NDDA" - I know - shameless plug)
Gumbo - liked your insight on this - Do you think it is possible to get all of the tracks (and promoters)in a state to adapt the same set of rules? (Sounds like an awfully tough job) I know you guys are working on this - Whats the outlook?
mhrs - your right on the fans - without them - where are we going. That's why I say we need more drama in this sport - as in heads-up racing - man against man - round after round. where is the suspense now?
On the rules (earlier post) Any Chassis, 130" wheel base max. four wheel drive only. (I know - your saying it is to short - yes?) Going by the current trends - a full size truck is just way to big and heavy (remember, guys are building trucks shorter and in the range of 2600 - 2700 lbs for class 3). you can not accommodate everyone. On stock frame (heck right now just tack it on the side someplace and 3'-4' will do)- who needs it - ANY CHASSIS - we are already there, why not write it down and stop the Bull.
specialized races - Right On ! - there are just not enough trucks in classes 3-6 to run them monthly at the local tracks. (track owners need to get together and try to promote 1 or 2 big shows at each of their tracks a year./ (that's where the unified rules come in). And as much as I hesitate to say it - local tracks need to think about Bracket races or consistency classes (for the drag classes) I know send in the hate mail.
Getting an entire state's worth of groups to agree on a single set of rules is probably not going to happen in my state. But, I do believe that those of us who are trying to draw in NMRO regulars could eventually agree on wording for most of those classes. And that's particularly true of our version of Class III or any above that. I think there are several of us who are very close (not just in my state) if not practically identical already.
That's good to hear,
Didn't mean to be so blunt on some of my comments.
Some food for though? - the original SUPER STOCK rules from the NMRO would still make a good class and I have seen areas that run close to these, except only a 4" engine setback (max.)and 3200-3400 lbs.(min). Down south they run this class and then bump up into what they call pro-street (same rules, but with cuts and NOS)(up in the northeast we do this with class 3 cuts with no NOS).
As much as I agree that the sport should progress - it would be a shame to see the stock (unmodified)frame class disappear - it would leave nothing in between class 2 (mod. street trucks) and a new class 3 (full on pro stock). As much as we are almost there, I for one must still question its worth.
I know my thoughts are going in a little different direction, but I think that's where we should be going. IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION!
Look at all of the different types of racing that there are, and think about what we are saying. I think we all have a strong love and passion for the sport, however, it's going nowhere. What do all of the big racing organizations have in common? I'm thinking, NHRA, IHRA, NASCAR, etc... They have leadership!
Racing is not just a sport, but a business, and a loosing business for most racers. How do we change this? All successful businesses have 2 key things behind them, and that is passion and leadership. We need new blood in the form of organization, passion, and leadership. I'm talking about someone with the desire to take over our sport and make it something that noone in the past has done. Look at how rock crawling competitions have taken off and out of nowhere. They have the competitors, sponsors, fans, purses, events, and magazine coverage that make it successful. It's not the competitors that make the sport successful, it's the success of the organization and the leadership behind it combined to bring all of the little things together. Let's be real, there are no rock crawler guys out there that are any smarter or resourceful as we are, and their events are paying big money, and have big sponsors.
Special Events and or NMRO is a wasted effort. Remember, this is a business to them and they are in this for one reason, and that is to make money. I say we need to be looking for new leadership for our sport to go to the next level. We have something to sell! For the right individual or organization, the next level is not that far away. It's going to take someone passionate about racing, which, Special Events is definetely not. All I'm saying is, let's look to promote what we have to sell elsewhere. Special Events has done us no favors by taking over the NMRO. Can someone find us new leadership with the same passion we all have for the sport?
If we all work together to accomplish this as a goal, we could be racing for the purses that we deserve and need to continue enjoying the sport.
Just an idea, but, Bruton Smith (owner of Speedway Motorsports) owns several of the NASCAR tracks. A $20,000 purse would be a joke to him. If we could get one race organized with him, at one of the NASCAR tracks,(preferably Charlotte)and do it in conjunction with another event going on at the speedway, where could we take this?
Let's think big! Any supporters?
I am willing to take the time and try to schedule a meeting with Bruton Smith. I will need support! Steve Vance(SVRE) and I have had this conversation before, and realize this is what we need to take the sport to a different level. The question is, "Do we have everyone's support in doing so"? If we do, I want to sit down and have this meeting with a group of level headed people at the table. I want at least one track owner/operator in the meeting and some other competitors from classes 4,5 and 6. I've met with some of Bruton's staff in the past on some other non related business deals, and this is something we'll want to have our shizzle together for. This would not be a mtg. at Shoney's in blue jeans and tennis shoes and I want us to be able to sell the sport. NASCAR fans are our fans too and we have something to offer him.
Grinch
Go for it!
If I can help let me know.
food for though - there is a well known class 5+6 driver that seems to be thinking along the same line.
I just wanted to take a moment to comment on the last posts made by the Grinch. MHRS and myself have had this very conversaton w/regard to Fast Mud Promotions and their continuing efforts to improve mud racing as a whole. You couldn't be more right about needing someone who has a passion for racing to be at the helm of this type of organization. A man of Bruton Smith's caliber would surely fit the bill and you can certianly count on my support on this matter. Iwould be willing to attend any meeting and I know other well respected racers who would be willing to do the same. Please call me as I have some ideas that would lend itself to this endeavor.
Grinch, Please let me know if I can do anything to help. I would be more than happy to attend a meeting such as you are suggesting. I have competed in the sport from Stock class thru Modified and have been involved in promoting races from local shows to national caliber events. I also have written rules for several sanctioning bodies. I feel that I can see things from both sides. I am not bragging, I just want to help. I have tried to help promote and improve the sport of Mud Drag Racing ever since I began competing. I really like the way you are thinking!!
Brian Erne (Fast Mud Promotions)
theernes@comcast.net
Well, I think Grinch is onto at least one major problem we have - our best known, most prestigious event is NMRO. And they are going nowhere, have no desire to take the sport anywhere. It's been a big roadblock in MY sponsorship efforts - people see my organization as being beneath NMRO, and since NMRO has no big sponsors & no reliable TV time, why should any group "beneath" that? So, the time has definitely come for NMRO to be something other than #1.
As for the rock crawlers, they have several advantages over us. First, all the mags are based on the West Coast & rock crawling is VERY popular as a recreational sport there. So, all the manufacturers of 4x4 parts see the sport as a way to sell their stuff. Goodyear basically invented the modern competition rock crawling event as a way to sell their new MTR tire - and hired Walker Evans to drive for them. And they have a tire war. Imagine if we had 10 different brands of tires that were capable of winning on any given weekend, including all the "big" manufactureres. It would bring LOTS more money into our sport. As far as spectators, the vast majority of their events have PITIFUL spectator attendance, but as long as the mags show up & TV cameras are rolling, it's a good investment to sponsor those events, and those machines. And those guys do have some VERY good marketing people working for several of the teams & events.
The advantage WE have over them is our events are TONS more exciting to watch. And you don't have to be "into" the sport to enjoy watching it. Rock Crawling is the golf of motorsports. Were it not for the popularity of RECREATIONAL trail riding, nobody would ever watch a competition rock crawl or care what kind of equipment was on those machines. But, it is popular recreationally, so that's why they thrive. We don't have that advantage, but because we're better suited as a spectator event, we should be going after national consumer goods as our sponsors. And we MUST be on TV to make it all worthwhile. With a good TV contract, the purses don't even HAVE to be enormous as the car owners can get sponsor $$ themselves that vastly outpaces what they could win at even a BIG event.
BTW, count me in as one who'd like to help if this thing goes to the next level. I've had an idea I've been wanting to pitch to someone for a national tour that'd focus on class III & the next one up (cuts & nitrous Pro Stock). Not to smite the top levels, I just think you guys make better billboards ;)
Gumbo you are right on!!! The TV aspect of things would most defiinately help with sponsorshiip on the racers part. This has aslo hindered my search for sponsorship. I do feel that for this to work we would have to change the format that is currently used and go to a more drag race oriented style of competion. First to the stripe heads up. This would mean a qualified field and multiple rounds of racing. This would bring the nesessary drama that would keep a crowd entertained. If you incorperate the monster trucks into this they have a 4 round competion allready. We could be an addiition to that at NMRO events or could stand alone.
It has been pretty well established that few competitors are happy with the way special events has handled the NMRO. I hate to have to be the one to say this, being there are so few races for most people to go to, but, if you are tired of the hassle, expense, questionable rules, bad equipment (lights), and second class treatment, don't go. As for racers, support the independent races on those dates. Promoters, I know it's tough, but competing races need to be scheduled on competing weekends. Nothing is going to change without hitting someone in the wallet, whether that is special events in a lack of entries or an independent with an abundance of entries. The bottom line is cash. Special events has been raking it in for years, and has not promoted the sport (purse, spectators, contingency). If your local race promoter was collecting this kind of cash, rules, schedules, etc. would be better taken care of because there would be an incentive. I could rattle on about the local circle track and drag scene and why it works with a track in every county, but most of you have the same thing locally, and it's pretty clear. The track operators make money. They have a vested interest in making rules similar and schedules mesh. I wish you the best of luck in your presentation, and if there is anything I can do to help, let me know.
P.S. please don't discount the appeal of the class 4 contingent, a lot of them came from the class 3 ranks, and they still have a commanding crowd appeal, what with their nitrous explosions, long chassis, and such.
MHRS, didn't mean to underscore the appeal of the class IV-VI guys. Certainly, from a spectator's point of view, that's one of the best shows going. I've got some buddies working on some stuff for you guys & hopefully if we somehow can do the same for the 3/3+ gang, it'll work out for everyone in the end :)
If your going to promote this sport in a different venue - You will need ALL of the top pro classes. I am all for specialized shows highlighting 1 or 2 classes on a local level, But if you want a National Event - then - nothing says HORSEPOWER like 20 or 30 BLOWER CARS! (their out there)We have that potential (half of the time IHRA can't get that many Alcohol dragsters).If promoted right.
your right traveler you need everyone. I was at that race in virginia I didnt race weather was an issue there were only about 15 cars there but the blowers and the pro mods were the show. I was dissapointed williams and kinsellas news cars were not there hope to see them at lima I was told theres alot of wrenching going on everywhere! The season is coming fast. Anymore class 3 rule news I was told today they may can chain drives for class 3 anyone else hear this
I do not think there will be any more changes, not this late in the game, I would go by the rules listed on their web site.
Its early yet - heck the snows still falling in many places.
hey anonymous are you sure you didn't make any runs last weekend
Traveler, Gumbo,
I think we are all on the same page as far as heading elsewhere for leadership we need all the "pro" classes (3,4,5,6) on board. They are all crowd pleasers, and have a loyal participant following. Class 3 should have a lot of clout, because at an average nationals, they have the biggest field. Yes, class 4-6 has a lot of entries too, and you can't replace the sound of a blower car, but how many of these entries are people bumping up for more runs? Lately we've seen a number of class 3 trucks place well in class 4, and that only backs up how dedicated 3 guys are to advancing their position. Some of this intermingling is acceptable, but if you want to sell the organization as a whole, you can't count Otis running his k-10 longbed with a 502 and d.o.t.s at Bloomsburg in class 6 as a participant. We have been referencing IHRA/NHRA formats. If only 7 top fuel cars show up, a top sportsman or pro stock can't bump up. They have standards. I only mention this because there is talk of making a presentation to someone dealing on a national circuit level. On a participant level, they probably won't want to see simply paid entry stats, but who is entering. What I am getting at, is that it would be helpful to the cause to have some statistics to present to a race promoter if you are trying to sell the sport in general. Normally, we are all eager to have everybody and their brother enter every class to make it a success, but this has to change. If you want to get people with money involved, it needs to be presented professionally, from the prospective of how much more money they are going to make. You might already have this in mind, it's just a comment. P.S. I'm looking for a cheap 4150 850 DP.
Whether we are presenting ideas and concerns to the NMRO, discussing potential racing events with a Promoter, or negotiating with Sponsors, we as members of the Mud Racing community need good representation. We need to be unified in our decisions about where we want the sport to go and what will be the best way to reach our goals.
I believe we need a small group of elected officials to represent us. These officials should be Mud Racing participants. Many types of Sports and Motorsports have formed Unions to represent their best interests. This is simply the only fair way to negotiate with other groups (promoters, track owners, sanctioning bodies, etc) and truly represent the majority.
I volunteer to write a proposal / questionnaire to be distributed (starting at Lima) to as many Mud Racers as possible throughout the year. The purpose of this proposal / questionnaire would be 4 fold.
(1) Introduce racers to the concept and benefits of having some type of Union or Racers Group.
(2) Collect opinions and input from the Racers.
(3) Obtain a list of nominees for Mud Racing representatives to be voted on later in the year.
(4) Collect addresses for a mailing list.
This group of voted officials (representatives) would be responsible for making decisions about how the Racers Union would operate. They would then represent the sport of Mud Racing during the 2008 season.
I believe that this is the FIRST step toward making changes to improve our sport, in regards to rules, safety, sanctioning bodies and pay.
Please comment and let me know what you all think!
A unified voice & approach is something that's definitely lacking & desperately needed to advance any kind of agenda. Aside from doing & saying the same things so as to appear to be "on the same page" about where the sport is going, there's just simply strength in numbers. To be taken seriously by those that CAN impact the sport in a positive manner, everyone has to be going in the same direction, not 30 different guys all doing their own thing.
MHRS,Instagator and gumbo are you guys famliar with the NHRA Professonal Raceres Organization. This could be the mold needed to create said group. They are an elected group from each class and they are responsiible for dealing with the sactiioning body on all matters pertianing to the racers. I for 1 am for the questionaire and will be happy to help as well as publish the results. Lima sounds like a good place to start and any interested partys should make iit a point to stop at my trailer.
Great idea, Intsagator. That is the type of thing that could potentially make a real difference. Many individuals have in the past expressed their concerns to the NMRO, to no avail. This might add some bite to the bark. It would also give people a chance to collectively decide the best interest for their class, instead of individuals promoting what they may already be doing. An effort of this nature is long overdue, and if I can be of some assistance, please let me know. Good luck.
I like the idea of the driver's union, just not sure NMRO is where you need to apply it.
i would guess - that where you apply it - would have to do with what your final goal is going to be.
That has yet to be determined?
There are many areas in this sport that will need addressing - not just the NMRO.
I for one am curious to see where the racers - may want it to be taken?
Something like a racers association would not have to focus solely on the NMRO. It could be utilized in dealing with a number of entities at the same time. It might be a last ditch effort to make concerns heard to the NMRO, but at the same time, it could provide the independent locals and the occasional high roller promoter what direction to head to include the concerns of the majority.
I cannot say for sure, but I think that dealing with the NMRO would be a small part of what this Racers Association would do. Hopefully, having a unified voice through elected officials would open the door to new, better races. It should be mutually beneficial to Race Promoters and to the Mud Race Competitors. For example, the Racers Association provides guidelines to the Promoter with regards to rules, safety and pay. This benefits the Racers. In return, the Racers Association endorses the race and recommends the event to all Mud Race Competitors. That would be pretty good advertising! This helps the Promoter bring in more cars which helps with obtaining sponsorship. With this type of collaboration, who would need the NMRO!
To take it a step beyond endorsement, one could even envision a points series spread among many of these independent promoters.
I like that Gumbo - maybe different divisions, for different parts of the country? (northeast,southeast, midwest,etc. etc.)(maybe with an elected rep. from that area on the board of the racers org.)? With regional shootouts - like North vs South kind of thing.
The format is already available from other organizations.
Ranting - because I can - So I guess I will give my parting shot on this Blog. it is nice to see a group of people (i am sure there are more)that can come together, too see what can be done to promote mud racing in a positive manner. I think a racers organization is a must if we wish to progress.
But I for one am not so quick to abandon Special Event, after all they are the largest promoter of this sport. Is their system broken - yes. But its not that hard of a fix. Of course they may not have listen to one or two racers complaining about the rules - would you have? People want them to change the rules to fit the trucks that are running - does this mean that we should accommodate the handful of racers that seem to treat the rules as only a suggestion? We must stop writing rules to fit the trucks and start building trucks to fit the rules. (after all 95% of us do).
You want to make a new class? why not.(heck i even wrote some rules for it - but i also wrote a warning about it). But - do not - do it for a handful of trucks - do it - because it will make the sport better.
The NMRO was never the only game in town. (But they have been a fun game and a unique event for our sport). Do we really need them? maybe not? But if we do not fix some of the problems we feel they have, those problems will continue to follow the racers where ever they go.
Yeah, I like the idea of the regional thing (eventually) with national events every so often. Kind of been hoping for that for some time. And yeah probably no reason to abandon NMRO. For all the complaints about them, they still have better purses than 99% of the races & do an awful lot of stuff right. I don't however have much confidence in their desire to move the sport forward. They certainly have the ability, but again I doubt the desire.
"When teams are allowed to push the rules,it infuriates the other honest teams to the point where they may decide not to come back. They'll go where they feel the racing is "straight up". Promoters need to realize that car counts won't go up by relaxing the rules so as not to tick anyone off. By allowing teams to push the rules they run the risk of running off the other teams as well as the escalation of the offenses tward the rules. Car count can be lost when the rules are not inforced. Promoters, take note. If you intend to keep or increase your series or track attendance than you must enforce the rules and come down hard on those that cheat regardless of who they are. It takes both courage and integrity to just say no to cheating." This was parafrased from an article that appeared in Circle Track and I think that it has relevence to the ongoing disscusion about trying to improve our sport specificaly in the streamlining and clarifiication of the rules.
Well say what you want about the NMRO and Im not a big fan of the way they run things but its not a bad deal when you think about it. a 1 day ticket at bloomsburg costs $15 when you pay your entry fee you get 1 pass in the mud,and 2 wrist bands for the weekend (thats a $90 value)and you get a chance to win prize money.So the way I look at it its a better deal than alot of your local races where you pay to run plus pay an admission price on top of it!.As far as rules go you cant push for rules that would penalize guys already running class 3.Stop complaining about what other people are running, how would all you guys running 632+ like it if they said no motors over 600 in class 3 would you be ok with that? Yea I bet you wouldnt either.P.S can we at least get 1 national done before we complain anymore heck after lima you may want to ban yellow trucks in class 3.
Aah - a difference of opinion - precisely why we need a racers organization and Precisely why issues should be brought up for a vote.
p.s. I except that yellow truck will follow the rules as they have always done and as that red jeep did.
i sure hope the dont throw the yellow trucks out if they do all of my winters work is trashed , lol
m
Im just kidding jiggy it seems on here some people complain about the good trucks in the class and your new ride looks great. I will be surprised if your not the top guy at seasons end!
well we can only hope for the best ,we still got alot of bugs to work out an this thing is very touchy so we will just have to wait an see what happens
- IF anything ever comes of all of this discussion and IF - it ever changes anything - IT WILL NOT BE UNTIL NEXT SEASON - Or beyond.
I wouldn't care if they banned 600 inch motors at all. Hey I still have a 540 in inventory. I am not complaining about anyone or their truck I do feel that the point of the aticle is very relavent to what the ultimate goal for all us credible racers is, legitimacy for the sport. If you don't like the article complain to Bob Bolles at Circle Track magazine
Anonymous, I'm not sure what your getting at with your figures. Last time I entered a racecar at Bloomsburg was 2001, but it cost 2 $65 entries to have two passes in class 3, my driver's $50 NMRO membership, and two crew and my own $25 associate memberships to get on the infield. I had plenty of armbands, but that didn't get you into the "competition area". Usually for an average paying fair type race, I'm used to paying 50 - 100 to enter and about 10 apiece for my guys. They also usually pay more than $400 to win. I do concede that nobody pays back ten places, or has the additional entertainment to justify the cost. Regardless, I will continue to regard the national circuit in a negative light, based not only on my experience, but on the attitude most racers have come August. Everyone worked hard all winter, and they're revved up to race and party, so NMRO is again a god. 3-4 races into he season, when the leaders have been beaten up by the plague like problems that surface every year, we'll be having the same negative comments. Personally, I have quit participating in the Special events series, Because I refuse to be treated so poorly. If you or anyone else is content, please do not think I am trying to persuade you otherwise, I am simply using the only leverage I have (my dollars) to promote other venues.
P.S. - For those of you thinking it, I'll say it. Times have changed since 2001. Now entries are $85 for Bloomsburg.
LIke I said IM not sticking up for the NMRO at all! I was just pointing out that for each entry you get 2 armbands that are worth 45 each (bloomsburg is 15 per day)If you dont have a crew you could go out and sell them and get some money back.And yes the racers have to pay 50 to join the NMRO but you know as well as I do that crew members never have to show id to get a wristband for the infield!. Let me say again IM NOT AN NMRO FAN!!
P.S. The NMRO is like gas stations nobody likes the prices but they keep buying it anyway.What are you gonna do.Im not worried about entry fees,or nmro membership costs it costs more to get to races than you get if you win most races now.
I can't see anyone ever completely abandoning NMRO. Whether or not it remains everyone's "primary focus" is yet to be seen ;)